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  • WN8: v19 has been applied

    The v19 of the WN8 expected tank values has been released. I've created the table according to the files created by the team behind WN8 and published on http://www.wnefficiency.net/wnexpected/
    It display also the delta to the previous settings v18.

    The v19 Update brings data for really much tanks, all data (Ratings for your Tanks, Battle Results/Replays and Profiles) needs to be calculated. I will inform you as soon as all data has been calculated.

    WOT Statistics will also get an update containing these new values, probably this monday.

    Read more:
    http://wiki.wnefficiency.net/pages/WN8#Periodic_Updates
    http://www.wnefficiency.net/wnexpected/
    http://www.vbaddict.net/adu.php
    Comments 16 Comments
    1. Sidney_Snot.eu's Avatar
      Sidney_Snot.eu -
      How is it possible to make 282 damage with the M5 Stuart? It was easy enough to make some damage when it had the 75mm howitzer prior to 9.3, with the current 37mm autocannon I've almost given up shooting because even with premium rounds it has only 78mm avge pen. Since it spends most of it's games in battles against tanks it can't even pen in the side with regular AP, how do you arrive at what seems to be an impossibly high damage target for WN8. I just had my first T5 battle since rebuying the M5 yesterday and I only managed to pen 9 of the 17 premium shells I fired, at mainly T4 tanks for a total of 361 damage earning 1480 WN8 on the ADU. Often I'm getting less than 500 WN8, which is ridiculous when I'm normally in the Top 5 for XP. I realise WN8 is damage driven and this really highlights how flawed it is.

      I have looked at the damage dealt for the M5 over the last 30 days and it is just 87.86. This means the average damage dealt by the M5 is only 31% of the 282 damage that is expected of it. The AMX 40 only needs to deal 237 and is averaging 123 and that doesn't spend almost all of it's battles against tanks it simply cannot penetrate.

      So exactly how do you arrive at the expected damage amounts and other components for WN8? I assumed you would be using something like the average amount of damage, the average number of spots per game etc. But this is clearly not the case.
    1. Fulmir.na's Avatar
      Fulmir.na -
      Quote Originally Posted by Sidney_Snot.eu View Post
      How is it possible to make 282 damage with the M5 Stuart?
      Play carefully, aim for sides and rears, and know which tanks you can fight and which you have to run from. The M5 Stuart can actually pen a KV-1 from the rear, if not consistently then often enough to get some damage. It can also pen most same or higher tier Mediums and Lights since they almost universally have crappy armor. You don't do well in a Tier 7 game but a skilled player can still make damage, and for the so-so players the lower tier games make up the difference. Mostly you just need to stay alive until you can run around and flank or kill arty.
    1. W0nk0.eu's Avatar
      W0nk0.eu -
      I have to agree with Sidney - please refer to the AVERAGE damage dealt by ALL players in the M5:

      http://www.vbaddict.net/statistics.p..._dealt&server=

      The average M5 player deals <90 damage in it.

      It doesn't even matter how one is supposed to deal the expected damage - what matters is how your WN8 calculation process can arrive at an expectancy that is likely MANY standard deviations over the actual average reported by vbaddict uploaders?

      The results show it clearly - refer to http://www.vbaddict.net/statistics.p...cy_wn8&server= and you see that the M5 gets an ..

      Average WN8 of around 300! Again: THREE HUNDRED. On average.

      So how does this make any sense? Basically, if you drive an M5 all the time, your WN8 will drop to @300 if you are an AVERAGE player. There are countless more tanks where it's even worse (M7 Priest - average WN8: 229..).

      How can anyone reasonably use WN8 to gauge player skill with that?!
    1. W0nk0.eu's Avatar
      W0nk0.eu -
      Addition:

      The systematic failure of WN8 to assign an average rating to an average player is even more obvious when you group average tank stats by tier:

      http://www.vbaddict.net/statistics.p...cy_wn8&server=

      If you play nothing but Tier 10 tanks and are an AVERAGE player, your WN8 will be 1450

      If you play nothing but Tier 6 tanks and are an AVERAGE player, your WN8 will be 890
    1. x7x.na's Avatar
      x7x.na -
      Quote Originally Posted by W0nk0.eu View Post
      I have to agree with Sidney - please refer to the AVERAGE damage dealt by ALL players in the M5:

      http://www.vbaddict.net/statistics.p..._dealt&server=

      The average M5 player deals <90 damage in it.

      It doesn't even matter how one is supposed to deal the expected damage - what matters is how your WN8 calculation process can arrive at an expectancy that is likely MANY standard deviations over the actual average reported by vbaddict uploaders?

      The results show it clearly - refer to http://www.vbaddict.net/statistics.p...cy_wn8&server= and you see that the M5 gets an ..

      Average WN8 of around 300! Again: THREE HUNDRED. On average.

      So how does this make any sense? Basically, if you drive an M5 all the time, your WN8 will drop to @300 if you are an AVERAGE player. There are countless more tanks where it's even worse (M7 Priest - average WN8: 229..).

      How can anyone reasonably use WN8 to gauge player skill with that?!

      And the 'average' player at tier 4 in a light with scout mm thinks exactly like you do "this tank sucks and is only good at suicide scouting."

      Anyone with half a brain can do well in a low tier light tank by playing smart, limiting your exposure, and taking appropriate risks.

      There's a reason the expected values for light tanks is so low, and it's mainly because people **on average** don't know how to play them well, as they are the hardest class to do very well in. Oh, and for the record, the 'average' wn8 of all players is around 770-800... So combine that with the difficulty curve of playing a low armor, low hp vehicle, and what do you get? Logic.

      Quote Originally Posted by W0nk0.eu View Post
      Addition:

      The systematic failure of WN8 to assign an average rating to an average player is even more obvious when you group average tank stats by tier:

      http://www.vbaddict.net/statistics.p...cy_wn8&server=

      If you play nothing but Tier 10 tanks and are an AVERAGE player, your WN8 will be 1450

      If you play nothing but Tier 6 tanks and are an AVERAGE player, your WN8 will be 890
      And how many battles does the average person who only has reached certain tiers have? With experience comes knowledge, in most cases. Someone with 12k battles in tier T9-10 games is probably going to be better on average than someone with 2k battles in T9-10, and better than someone with 12k battles in T6. Because you learn tactics, positions, etc.. Higher tiers are less forgiving of mistakes and therefore cause you to become better all-round in order to succeed. This phenomenon carries down the tiers. Playing your low tier tanks doesn't necessarily make you a better high-tier player.
    1. Graybie.na's Avatar
      Graybie.na -
      The data in that is used for WN8 calculations has had players with less than 1000 games filtered out (source). As such, you will generally find much higher expected values than average values for low tier tanks, as the average values in those tanks are generally pulled down by new players. By doing this, it helps alleviate the effect of skilled players seal-clubbing in low tiers. Sure, the new players suffer somewhat with their WN8, but that is something that effected all of us when we started (unless you are a reroll....you dirty stat padder :P ), and given the low number of games that most non-seal-clubbers have in low tier tanks, it has little effect.

      Also, to simply sum up what x7x just described about the WN8 difference between tiers, a player who can consistently perform at an average level at tier 10 is better than one who can do so at tier 6. Any argument on that?
    1. Phalynx.eu's Avatar
      Phalynx.eu -
      Update WN8 on vBAddict to the newest update from today.

      STA-2 was twice with different values and also updated Pz V/IV Alpha to the values of the Pz V/IV.
    1. _b_.eu's Avatar
      _b_.eu -
      Since noobmeter seems to be out of commision, I sorely miss the easy layout to see just what tanks I've played during a certain time-period ... would it be possible to implement this feature in vbaddics session stats?
    1. Sidney_Snot.eu's Avatar
      Sidney_Snot.eu -
      Quote Originally Posted by x7x.na View Post
      And the 'average' player at tier 4 in a light with scout mm thinks exactly like you do "this tank sucks and is only good at suicide scouting."

      Anyone with half a brain can do well in a low tier light tank by playing smart, limiting your exposure, and taking appropriate risks.

      There's a reason the expected values for light tanks is so low, and it's mainly because people **on average** don't know how to play them well, as they are the hardest class to do very well in. Oh, and for the record, the 'average' wn8 of all players is around 770-800... So combine that with the difficulty curve of playing a low armor, low hp vehicle, and what do you get? Logic.

      And how many battles does the average person who only has reached certain tiers have? With experience comes knowledge, in most cases. Someone with 12k battles in tier T9-10 games is probably going to be better on average than someone with 2k battles in T9-10, and better than someone with 12k battles in T6. Because you learn tactics, positions, etc.. Higher tiers are less forgiving of mistakes and therefore cause you to become better all-round in order to succeed. This phenomenon carries down the tiers. Playing your low tier tanks doesn't necessarily make you a better high-tier player.
      WN8 has nothing whatsoever to do with how well or how badly the average player might play the M5, because it doesn't take any notice of how much spotting damage a player gets in a battle, only on how much damage the player himself does in the battle. I spot a reasonable amount of damage, or at least I light it up for my team mates, some games they shoot the enemies I've spotted and some they just go off and die elsewhere.

      I am well aware of how to make damage, unfortunately the M5 isn't robust enough to attack the T7 heavies and mediums I find myself facing almost every game. I am not prepared to use premium ammo in a tank that fires off all 5 shells in it's clip when it might only need 1 or 2. It is difficult enough to make credits using just a few premium rounds in a game, in any case WN8 shouldn't depend on a player being willing to lose credits every game. It is normally only possible to break through the enemies lines and find their arty in the latter stages of a battle, first and foremost a Scout isn't there to deal damage, he is there to spot for his team to allow them to deal damage. So the idea that a T4 scout should be dealing 300 damage every game is extremely unrealistic, I spot and because I know my gun will almost certainly be unable to penetrate the enemy I don't bother shooting it. If I'm sure I am undetected and the map allows it I will sit in a bush and light up their tanks for my team to shoot. So many T6 & T7 enemy tanks can kill the M5 with one or two shots, so I rarely bother to fire my my gun's five shots that will bounce and give my position away. Far better to spot for the big guns in the team than bounce a lot and get destroyed.

      The M5 is a T4 light tank and a scout, it has a pitifully weak gun that ensures it is not a damage dealer. On the majority of maps that have fixed lines of approach, it is hard enough to spot without sustaining damage, and a gun that cannot even penetrate a KV1 without considerable luck, is why the average player doesn't deal any damage with it.

      The biggest failing of WN8 is it's failure to take spotting damage into account. As things stand a suicide scout that deals an average of 90 damage a game with no spotting damage will earn more WN8 than a player who does only 80 damage a game and 1000 spotting damage. Yes an effective scout will probably have a better win rate, but a scout is only going to be effective if his team shoots at what he is spotting for them.
    1. Sidney_Snot.eu's Avatar
      Sidney_Snot.eu -
      I have been playing the M5 again this morning and while driving, using autoaim I bounced 3 of the 5 shots in my clip off a Pz38na. In return I took four penetrating shots in my front side and rear as I drove towards and past him. The Pz has 50mm of frontal armour and several guns with far better penetration and rates of fire than the M5 and is expected to deal 278.85 damage, thats less than the M5. It's top gun allows it to snipe from cover too, something that just isn't possible with the M5, which needs to get up close and personal with an enemy if it is to have any chance of hitting or penetrating.

      I've played 2 battles with the M5 this morning and spotted 4 enemies for 284 assisted damage in the first one, when I met the Pz38na. In the second I spotted 5 enemies and 1004 spotting damage with no damage of my own, despite shooting off several clips. The M5 misses so much, largely because it's cannon is woefully inaccurate and it is necessary to keep moving to have any chance of surviving. Bear in mind with its high silhouette and 360m view range, it can't see as far as a T6 or T7 medium. It isn't even particularly quick or manouverable so staying alive is considerably more difficult than in an ELC with it's ultra low silhouette for example, which also has an impressive gun and is of course a scout the M5 regularly meets in the T6 & T7 battles it finds itself in every game. My WN8 for these 2 games 145 each, BR on the other hand was 881 & 1288 respectively.

      The average assisted damage via radio (Spotting Damage) is just 137.61 and damage via track 6.15 per battle (Total Assisted Damage 143.76 for the M5) My average assisted damage on the M5 is 420, in an average battle Tier of 5.34 (The average tier for all players is 4.92 & 4.68 for Unicums)

      I am well aware I'm only an average player, however because of the woefully underpowered gun on the M5 and the amount of damage the vehicle is expected to make, my WN8 rating says I am little better than a bot. I would do better to hide in base until the enemy arrives and hopefully penetrate with a couple of shots for 100 or so damage before they shoot me, after all I will get better WN8 for doing that than I do for using the tank for its intended purpose. So if the average player expects a WN8 of maybe 300 for an M5, something is either very wrong with WN8 overall, or the way it is calculated for this tank.

      The upshot is, WN8 says I'm a shit player because I try to do the right thing and spot targets for my team with a shit tank instead of hiding at the back and letting my team spot for itself while waiting until the last minute so I can try and deal some damage.

      Why this tank makes me realise how pointless WN8 and it's damage based ratings system truly is.
    1. deCox77.eu's Avatar
      deCox77.eu -
      When did we get an WoTStatistic Update on V1.9 WN8?
    1. Phalynx.eu's Avatar
      Phalynx.eu -
      Never. Currently preparing v20 for the public release.
    1. OutCom.asia's Avatar
      OutCom.asia -
      Quote Originally Posted by Sidney_Snot.eu View Post
      How is it possible to make 282 damage with the M5 Stuart? It was easy enough to make some damage when it had the 75mm howitzer prior to 9.3, with the current 37mm autocannon I've almost given up shooting because even with premium rounds it has only 78mm avge pen. Since it spends most of it's games in battles against tanks it can't even pen in the side with regular AP, how do you arrive at what seems to be an impossibly high damage target for WN8. I just had my first T5 battle since rebuying the M5 yesterday and I only managed to pen 9 of the 17 premium shells I fired, at mainly T4 tanks for a total of 361 damage earning 1480 WN8 on the ADU. Often I'm getting less than 500 WN8, which is ridiculous when I'm normally in the Top 5 for XP. I realise WN8 is damage driven and this really highlights how flawed it is.

      I have looked at the damage dealt for the M5 over the last 30 days and it is just 87.86. This means the average damage dealt by the M5 is only 31% of the 282 damage that is expected of it. The AMX 40 only needs to deal 237 and is averaging 123 and that doesn't spend almost all of it's battles against tanks it simply cannot penetrate.

      So exactly how do you arrive at the expected damage amounts and other components for WN8? I assumed you would be using something like the average amount of damage, the average number of spots per game etc. But this is clearly not the case.
      Er... I rack up ~2.5k WN8 in that tank... ~450 damage per game isn't really that hard tbh. Nowadays, there are much more lightly armoured tanks such as the E 25 and the Chi Ri at Tier 7, which is the highest Matchmaker will ever put you. Also, situational awarreness really does help... especially since you should go after enemy light tanks. Kill an enemy M5 and you get 340 damage. Simple. But thats just me...
    1. deCox77.eu's Avatar
      deCox77.eu -
      Quote Originally Posted by Phalynx.eu View Post
      Never. Currently preparing v20 for the public release.
      Wow! So fast a next update. Normaly 3 months, now a few weeks. Thx 4 answer
    1. Phalynx.eu's Avatar
      Phalynx.eu -
      Update to v20 has been released:
      http://www.vbaddict.net/content/152-...s-been-applied
    1. ThePegasus1979.eu's Avatar
      Still ridicolous, that WN8 system. A Lorraine 40t, a tank with a higher pen & much preciser gun, a higher pot-dmg-per-drum, than the T54E1 only has an expected dmg of 1,413 whilst the T54E1 nearly has 1,700. That means whilst the Lorraine can even miss 1 shot of its drum and have low rolls, the 54E1 needs a complete drum plus reload and another shot (with the much worse gun). That is getting especially ridicolous if you consider that the avg dmg done by Lorraine is 1,353 and for the 54E1 1,475. So the Lorraine gets good WN8 doing a tiny bit more than average dmg whilst the 54E1 has to do significantly more?
      Really guys, if you develop something like WN7 oder WN8, please get at least a BASIC understanding of statistics and maths.